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Hard starting

32K views 65 replies 14 participants last post by  Johnny 7  
I've done a post on this...but didn't add it to my favorites...
With engine cold, bed up, and someone else to turn the key.

But, like a compression test, have person #2 turn the cold engine over half a dozen times or so.
With you having an ear right down by the valve cover and listening. If you hear air moving, sort of like a breeze to wind blowing...
it's a pretty good indication that the cylinders are leaking down.
Did this on my 2016 General at about 9800 miles. Yup, I could clearly hear the wind blowing. So not wanting to tear into the machine myself...at 67 years of age, etc.
I took mine to Terry Gilomen at Gilomen Innovations. He had all the parts on hand to to a top end, so all was ready.

As it turned out, the valve guides were badly worn. To the point the valves were not seating properly and air was leaking past and poor compression and danged hard to start!
But after I did get it started...after perhaps ten tries. You know, turn the key and a cylinder pops and you think it's going to start and doesn't. Or you crank it over enough to think
you better stop for a minute.
But then it does start. After is idle for a minute or two, you can shut the engine off, and it will restart on the first try. It will restart on the first try all day long...until it sits overnight and
gets cold...and you start all over.

I have come to see that this happens due to the aluminum cylinder head. The guides are badly worn. The valves are sloppy in the guides. As you are going through the ten try starting
process, each time a cylinder fires...you are putting head into that aluminum cylinder head. Gradually you get enough to swell the aluminum, the swelling shrinks the aluminum around the
valve guides to the point it holds the valve in place and the valve seals against the valve seat in the head. As soon as you get some coolant temp, the cylinder head has expanded and will
stay that way until the engine is fully cold...overnight.

For mine, it wound up taking a new cylinder head with all the components. Did not require any changes to the, what are they, boots for valve adjustment.
That was last November. She's started on the first try every time since. Even after sitting for months after the transmission committed suicide.

I'll bet that's your issue. Some say it should last a lot longer...but look at the rpm these engines are turning when we're out on the trail.
Pirate
 
No, a new bare head is about $800 or so.
The complete top end with new everything including piston rings (cylinders still had most of the finish honing cross hatch pattern present)
Including labor was $2300.
So not that bad, but not cheap either.
And I'm not sure that 10K miles isn't about right. The Prostar motor is not like today's automotive engines that will go 200K miles without being touched. If you notice, a lot of them are turning 2100 rpm at 75mph. We're turning 7000 rpm at 55mph.
Pirate
 
No, I might wish for 175 but the last year its been about 187 for the most part. On long steep uphill grades it may get to 201 but drops back to 187 as soon as we top out.
This past April, at Sand Hollow, my transmission committed suicide. The replacement from Rev6Sports has the 12% gear reduction for "H". With that installed,
my typical coolant temp is about 194 degrees.

Why my valve guides wore out at just shy of 10K miles. I'm pretty clueless. I've kept clean Outerwears on the two intakes under the hood and one over the air filter element at all times.
I rinse the Outerwears in my BOSS' left over dishwater in the RV and set to dry. Put the clean set in. I inspect the inside of the air filter element every time I change the Outerwears looking
for tan spots that would indicate dust has gotten through the filter media. When the filter element is out. I use a wet towel to wipe out the air box. Prior to putting the air filter element back in
I put just a thin coal of Joe Gibbs assembly lube on the inside of the mating surface so it seals to the neck in the air box. So I'm not getting any dust into the intake ducts.

Now the aluminum cylinder head casting is pretty rough! I kept my old one as I can get replacement valve guides. So I'm going to be looking for someone with expertise in port and polish to clean up the cylinder head. The flow characteristics of the head may have something to do with how long it lasts. The precision fit of the valve guides might also play into how long things last.

Here's a link to my post with pics and a video of how loose the valve guides are.
Pirate
 
Coolant is Coolant IMO. There's nothing performance about the "performance" stuff, just a gimmick

IMO just don't mix colors and IMO try to stick with the green stuff. Seems like the orange stuff eats head/intake gaskets..

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk
Hmmm...Engine Ice is a light blue. Maybe that's the secret to running cooler???
Pirate
 
Or it's a gimmick that you've fallen for...
O come on now...don't cheap shot me!!
I moved to the Engine Ice when I replaced the Polaris Radiator with the Super ATV HD radiator. The Super ATV radiator is a beautiful piece of TIG welded aluminum work. It offers a third more cooling
area, that helps. Filled the coolant system with Engine Ice as it was a bit less expensive than Polaris coolant and Amazon prime had it at my door in two days and I didn't have to drive 40 miles to the dealer. The Gilomen Innovations full ECU program includes a bit of richening of the air fuel mixture and than reduces coolant temp some. I use a UTV Inc. "Fan Override" kit and have the cooling fan running from the time I leave camp until I return to camp.
Combine all these...and yeah, it runs cooler. Exactly which contributes how much, you know, I don't have a clue. None of the components was that expensive. So I went with all of them.

I've since added a MTNTK Blowhole fan. I ran the black and *********** wires forward to under the hood and connected the white wire to the UTV Inc. Fan Override relay and the black wire to my
brass ground bolt. Thus the Blowhole fan runs when the coolant fan does. Which is my choice.
Pirate
 
Well, one cannot expect each of these to give you the full coolant temperature drop when combined. Each by themselves. Perhaps. But that was never my intent.
I didn't like rolling down a trail at 192 to 200 degrees. Why? I dunno. Just seemed hotter than necessary. My experiences the the previous 25 years had been with air cooled engines. So the RZR 800 was a big change. I installed the UTV Inc. Fan Override kit on the RZR 800. And used it all the time the machine was moving. That cut the coolant temp. How much. Sorry, I don't remember.
Early in the life of the General I added the UTV Inc. Fan Override switch and that helped by close to 10 degrees. I had done the Polaris recall to replace the Steering Column fastener and the ECU reprogramming in September 2017. I got my DuraClutch kit just about the same time and installed it. Had no problems until we got to Gold Camp, AZ in January 2018. First day out we got about 8 miles from the RV Park and experienced the Misfire Detection issue. We experienced it quite few times that day. Contacted DuraClutch and began doing some field engineering for them. They sent me different weights, different belts, then another Primary Clutch. Nothing changed. We returned to Colorado the middle of February 2018. That's when I found Terry Gilomen. I purchased a new ECU with his full program. That was the end of the Misfire Detection issue. But talking with Terry, he told me about richening the mixture a bit and that would reduce the coolant temperature by perhaps ten
degrees and provide perhaps eight or nine more horsepower. Sounded good to me!
I believe it was early in 2019 and we were in Arizona, that I read about the SuperATV HD radiator. The cost wasn't much more than a stock radiator, and being a curious Mechanical Engineer, I ordered one when we got home to Colorado. Open the box and was immediately impressed with the construction. Managing a number of major boiler repair in Coal Fired power plant boilers I've seen lots of welding. The TIG welding on this radiator was impressive. The welder a true attention to detail. Now, to be honest. It took me more than a month to figure out how to install the radiator and get it standing vertical. Today the lower bracket you get with the kit, I think, is from the drawing I shared. SuperATV's top bracket, it's better than mine. But, I had to completely drain the coolant system to make the radiator change. I had seen Engine Ice mentioned somewhere. So I thought, why not give it a shot. Bought it online at Amazon for a decent price, delivered in two days. And filled the coolant system and bled it in accordance with the Polaris instructions at the Bleed Screw. So all of this work was completed by Spring 2019 before we headed to Moab for the ROTR.

In Moab my coolant temp rand in the 175 to 187 degree range. Going up grades makes the coolant temperature rise. I have to think that's a function of the size of the coolant passages in the engine, the length of the coolant hoses between the engine and radiator and the efficiency of the water pump. Probably some of each. The coolant system operated in this temperature range until April 2022. We were at Sand Hollow. On our second day, having a great time on the sand, then heading back to camp. The right side bearing of the Idler shaft failed catastrophically, the case broke open. The break being probably 6 inches in length. The outer race of the bearing at the right side of the transmission, Idler shaft, broke into seven pieces, the ball retainer strips broke into numerous pieces and the balls were released into the transmission. So we were DONE for the trip. I ordered a Rev6Sports remanufactured transmission with lots of upgrades including the 12% gear reduction.
I only have about 350 miles on that transmission. Yes, from April 17th to September 16th the General was a hanger queen for a variety of reasons.
But getting out riding again I noted that the "normal" coolant temperature had risen to 194 degrees F. Thus far I suspect the gear reduction in the "H" range of the new transmission is the reason.
The rpm at a given speed in "H" is now the same rpm as in "L". So running the higher rpm may be the reason.

I believe what I read on Engine Ice was a 10 degree coolant temperature drop when driving. I never expected 50 degrees.
Again, making all the changes, I never expected the full advertised coolant temperature reduction with each one. Thermodynamics doesn't work that way. Some of the "upgrades" I did in my search for a cooler running engine were just curiosity. I've been retired since June 3rd, 2011. I've been a gearhead since I was a kid on the farm starting in 1967. (If I didn't want to walk a mile or more when the '51 Chevy truck quit..it was learn to fix it or walk. So I got an auto mechanics book and started learning.) Some of it was always dreaming of having a Mopar muscle car that I couldn't afford while paying for the Engineering Degree. So here I am, something gets my curiosity, I'll purchase it, install it, and see if I can get it to work. I have a good number of things in boxes that I couldn't get to work. But that's the way it goes. But it does help me answer questions here on the forum.
Perhaps this helps a bit??
Oh, and where did the Pirate handle come from. Clipped in a right and turn on a Harley, in Albuquerque, on May 23rd, 2008. Trauma to left optic nerve has left eye totally blind. Wore an eyepatch for two years. Now a laser engraved lens. Pirates often have an eyepatch over one eye. Me too. So moved from Iceman in the biking world to Pirate in the UTV world.
Pirate
 
But really, all of the things I have done will help a General run cooler. If you're looking for a single step...
First is the Gilomen Innovations ECU program. Look at their website for a listing of the good things it will provide.
Second is the UTV Inc. Fan Override kit. Having control over the cooling fan will help your machine run cooler.
Third is Engine Ice. I'm sure it helps reduce coolant temperature some. One of my big reasons for going with it, it's not toxic. I have a pair of 15 pound rescue dogs. They don't come down to the Toybarn that often. But I do not want to lose one or both of them due to lapping up a toxic anti-freeze.
Fourth is the SuperATV HD Radiator. Looks to me like the kit has come a long way since I bought mine. If you smash a radiator, or have one that develops a leak around a hose connection. These aluminum radiators, that I know of, aren't repairable like the brass radiators in antique automobiles. The HD radiator is a about the same price as a Polaris radiator. So it's something to consider.

Of course if you have questions...don't be afraid to ask! Remember, the only dumb question is the one you don't ask!
Pirate
 
OK, so when I plow snow, I'm running at 5 mph or less, in 4X4 and low gear. The fan comes on at 205 degrees and brings it down to 192.
I take it this is bad?

Any technique's to getting all of the old coolant completely out before I add new? Where do I drain it from?
M
Nope, not a think wrong with that. That's about how Polaris designed it to run and to meet emissions regulations. If the job gets to be larger and the temp gets up to 210-215 and fan on, the temp
doesn't come down until you lift the plow. It might we worth looking at options to help keep the temp in the Polaris range.
Pirate
 
MKP,
Have you tried listening to the motor to see if there is leak down?
The fact that it is so hard to start the first time afterwards it starts every time first time, is exactly what I had and it was worn valve guides.
To have the dealer check the valves, that would be checking the "boots" between the valve and cam. If anything with mileage they will get looser. Which means the valve will seat
better. In other words worn boot will have more valve gap and valve will come to full seat without issue. If they are too tight, the valves won't close and engine won't start (been there done that on a GM 454. Had to loosen the rocker arm adjuster 1/2 turn loose, started right off)
Here is a pic of the valve springs, keepers and "boots" for my engine during last Novembers top end at Gilomen Innovations.
Note they are just a metal cup, with round extension in the center to help keep it centers in the valve spring top. The rest of the valve are just sitting upside down in their boots.
None of my boots had to be changed due to wear.
Image

I would ask the dealer to do a "leak down" test first and see if there is an issue there.
If you look at the pic below, this is my cylinder piece before cleaning. Note the cylinders still
have quite a bit of the factory finish honing cross-hatch. The issue wasn't piston ring/cylinder wall wear.
But did put in a new set of piston rings.
Image


Just something I ask you to check before taking it to a dealer and being charged upwards of $800 to have
the valve boots checked. (that's what mine cost three years ago and they changed 3 boots! Expensive to say the least.)
Pirate
 
On each rear axle there is a rubber bellows that covers the inner and outer CV-Joint.
The inner bellows large diameter end should be right up against the Transmission case.
If the axle has come out of the Transmission, you will see a splined shaft about 1" in diameter and about 1.25" long. Thar is the part that plugs into the Transmission. If it has popped out, that's why you don't have traction on that side.
Take a look and pics and let us know what you find.
Pirate
 
OK! We have something to work with! There are two courses of action you can take to resolve this. My recommendation is to remove the left rear hub/rotor/bearing carrier. Then remove the axle. Inspect and clean the axle and transmission splines, check the circ clip on the axle. Drain and Inspect the transmission fluid. Reassemble everything, refill with fresh lube. And go for a ride.
Very strange the number of members having an axle pop out of either the front diff or the transmission.
I have to wonder if the axle itself is shorter than past years. Or the CV-Joint design has changed some? Perhaps the spring steel wire clip that is to keep the axle secure in the transmission is not quite large enough in diameter?

Perhaps someone can add something more, but it's seems this axle popping out started with the last couple years of manufacture?
Pirate
 
Isn't the rear transaxle sealed? Like all previous Polaris? Every time I've pulled an axle out the splines were separate from any gear lube etc. I also can't believe the circlips are intended to actually keep the axle inserted. There's no way that if there was any outward stress on the axle that the circlip would ever hold it. Correct me if I'm wrong but i would think the distance between the carrier and transaxle would not allow axle to come completely out of the transaxle. 20.000 miles on several Polaris models and never had any axle come out. **** most time they are a pain to pull out the first time just to apply anti seize due to the splines being exposed to the elements.
Dean, I think the axle seals in the Trans are to keep stuff out, not lube in.
The wire clip is intended to keep the axle in the Trans. I'm using a pair of Turner Cycles Nitro axles at the rear. Putting an axle in, I get the axle lined up with the splines and shove it in.
It goes all the way to where the wire clip has to sink into the groove in the axle, note the wire is not a full circle. I then have to grab a 5lb dead blow hammer and drive the axle in so the wire clip
gets squashed an pops into the grove in the transmission splines.
To get one of these axles out...well, I'm getting pretty good using a 30 pry bar, a 2lb dead blow hammer to hit the handle on the pry bar, turn the axle 90 degrees and repeat. And after a couple 360
degree turns, the wire clip finally squashes and the axle comes out a quarter of an inch. Then the axle can be pulled out like any other.

This is also why I coat the splines in the trans and on the axle with a good coat of nickel based anti-seize. It keeps the moister/water out of the trans and as one will learn, doesn't wash off very well.

This is why I don't understand how an axle pops out of the transmission in not the worst angle conditions.
And thus I wonder if the axle isn't a little shorter? This meaning with both the inner and outer CV-Joint shoved onto the axle shaft...what is the overall length and is that shorter than the axles that came with my 2016 General. Still have one that is in good shape...
Pirate