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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
i guess my thoughts are the the outwears stop the bigger particles but pass the small ones. I would have to think the smaller particles blow around and cause the wear on parts while the bigger ones tend to settle in the case. Im sure outerwears help. But i was looking to stop all the dust. I got the duraclutch filters on it now and allthough i dont have a dyno seat of the pants tells me i didnt loose anything. I ended up buying 3 of them. I put one on the clutch intake and one on the engine intake. Ill carry the third for a spare in case the engine one gets real dirty on a ride. duraclutch said to drill a 1- 1 1/4 hole in the top of the intake piece so i did that on both and then on the engine intake i opened up the back hole about another 1/2 inch and drilled some small holes in the front side to make sure i was going to get enough air. I also put an outerwear cover on my polaris air filter and am going to put uni sheet filter material cut to fit the side clutch intake. Its ordered but hasnt arrived yet. Should be pretty easy to pull the two underhood filters and the clutch intake on the side after every ride and clean them. After a bit i can see how often they really need cleaning by the dirt i get when i clean. Maybe its all an overkill. I think my main problem with dirt in the air box was from that crappy fitted filter box cover and it fixed that.
 

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Mmmm....the Outerwears and Frogzskin material will stop any particle larger than 5 microns, or 0.005". I have Outerwears over the combustion air and CVT cooling air inlets under the hood.
I use an Outerwears with an an end over the air filter element and I have the Frogzskin cover over the secondary CVT cooling air grille.
The tiny amount I find in the CVT housing is less than 1/4 teaspoon and is finer than Mama's face powder. I blow a little more out of the clutches, but it's also very fine dust.
The Outerwears are about half the price of the DuraClutch for over the under hood air inlets. Can't imagine their more effective at removing dust.

Pirate
 

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With anything more than the frogskin/outerwears materials on these intakes I'd start worrying about lack of air flow issues. More so on the clutch side than the engine side.

I'm not sure how well the fins on the clutch pull air, especially through a filter. Lack of air then results in increased belt temps... I'd take a bit of dust over increased belt temps...

On the engine side, I don't know that it pays to have 2 filters in line. A little dust in the air box isn't the worst thing... I'm not sure I'd want to risk running lean to find out... I'm sure EFI can make up for some of that, but it's a risk for sure...

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Todd at @Hunterworks doesn't recommend any prefilters of any kind on the clutch intakes. He recommends not restricting air to the clutch in any way. I don't ride super dusty conditions. I don't run any filters. All my SxSs (4 in total) never ran anything on the belt intakes, never had any issues.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
well id say if duraclutch recommends the for there clutches they have to flow enough. As to frog skin my thoughts are this. It would be the very fine dust that wears parts. The kind of dust that may come in blow around and go out the exhaust tube and not collect in the bottom of the clutch housing. What collects in the bottom is what id call sand not dust. Add to that duraclutches are suppose to move more air that stock clutches so for duraclutch to recommend them shows me they move plenty through them. Dont get me wrong im no expert on this. But then i doubt anyone here is doing anymore then giving an opinion because who else has done this and had problems? Id say im probably the first one to do this. Now duraclutch was honest with me when i asked about using one of there filters on the engine air intake. They said that they hadnt done enough testing to say either way. Then add to that im not running in the desert wide open and am 65 not 25 and i dont beat the crap out of things anymore anyway. Pretty much my riding is my wife and i taking a trail ride. Might open it up a few times during that ride but not that often. So when you add the 100 degree plus some run it id bet my clutches and belt running in 75 degree temps with these filter is still much cooler then theres. I just got back from the garage. I took the fine uni sheet and cut a filter out of it for the side clutch intake. Sprayed a light coat of filter oil on it and stuck it in. Shinned a light and looked from the back side and the light i had before that i sealed with silicone was gone. As to the underhood clutch filter id have to guess that the people at duraclutch know more about there clutches then anyone here. Surely more then me. So i will have to take there advice over internet advice.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Todd at @Hunterworks doesn't recommend any prefilters of any kind on the clutch intakes. He recommends not restricting air to the clutch in any way. I don't ride super dusty conditions. I don't run any filters. All my SxSs (4 in total) never ran anything on the belt intakes, never had any issues.
if i lived where there wasnt dust i wouldnt worry either. But dust cost me a 800 rzr motor with about a 1000 miles. Cause dirt getting past a crappy filter setup. Ill error on overkill any day over rolling the dice.
 

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Do you have dura clutches? Since you said dura clutches move more air than stock clutches, it's probably a bad idea to run their filters with a stock clutch for heat issues... it is possible that the dura clutch setup is designed to pull more air because the filter restricts it... I'll take the small amount of extremely fine dust that makes it through a fog skin as compared to blowing a belt or running a hot belt. Then deal with the strands everywhere when the belt explodes AND the extra belt dust from the belt wearing faster due to excess heat.... I think you're over thinking this stuff too much and you're going to harm your machine more than help it...

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
maybe with less air flow the stock clutch creates and more slippage from less clamping force with the stock clutch and slower back shifts just create more heat then add to that a slightly weaker belt and MAYBE it could cause problems like an exploded belt. Personaly ive road and raced high hp snowmobiles and drove atvs since the 70s and side by sides since 2008 and have never exploded a belt even on a modded machine. Ive wore them out and with some modded machines faster then normal but ive never had one come apart. Id bet its pretty rare. Probably most of it comes from running dunes in high gear in extreme heat with a high hp machine. Obviously 200hp puts alot more stain on a belt then a 100. .
 

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maybe with less air flow the stock clutch creates and more slippage from less clamping force with the stock clutch and slower back shifts just create more heat then add to that a slightly weaker belt and MAYBE it could cause problems like an exploded belt. Personaly ive road and raced high hp snowmobiles and drove atvs since the 70s and side by sides since 2008 and have never exploded a belt even on a modded machine. Ive wore them out and with some modded machines faster then normal but ive never had one come apart. Id bet its pretty rare. Probably most of it comes from running dunes in high gear in extreme heat with a high hp machine. Obviously 200hp puts alot more stain on a belt then a 100. .
Air flow has zero to do with clamping force... clamping force is directly related to spring/helix setup...

Your comment about slow back shifts and heat is probable. Slippage=heat...

You can't compare atvs/snowmobiles to utvs... it's just not equal. Weight being the biggest key here....

I've blown belts on snowmobiles before. All stock sleds. All making 125-150 hp and sleds weigh 1/3 of a utv...

Heat is the biggest enemy of any belt. When you restrict air flow in (filters). The heat level rises... especially when the belt case is right next to the motor...

Its your machine, do what you want. But like I stated before. I think you're over thinking the minimal dust that an outwears let's through. It's like trying to destroy a clutch with baby powder. Sure it'll happen eventually, but it'll take a long time... the biggest thing you want to keep out is sand. The outerwears will do that easily...

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
i referred to clamping force on the belt relating to slippage and causing more heat. Not that air flow increases clamping force. difference in dust and sand. Is sand is big and doesnt tend to stick to things and falls by gravity to the bottom of the case. Dust being finer and lighter will float and get into the tiniest of places and settle on metal parts. Its like saying what would wear metal faster. A grain of sand that landed (if it didnt just settle because of weight) on a bearing or throwing dust on that bearing that gets into the tinniest of places and stays.

Look at your air filter and you will see mostly dust not bigger particles. Its the same reason some wont use a K&N filter. It doesnt stop the real fine stuff that does the damage. When the first rzr's were having failures it was because FINE dust wasnt getting caught by the air filter. Ill just go back to what i said before. Duraclutch recommends this filter. They could just as easily recommended frog skin if they thought it stopped what destroys clutches. What is your experience level that I should listen to you instead of the people that make and have to warrantee these clutches and the belts they sell. Isnt my first rodeo. Ive been driving belt driven snowmobiles and atvs since the 60s. I also ride in one of the dustiest areas in the country in the summer months. But surely not even close to being one of the hottest places.

As to a snowmobile not being comparable because of weight you might want to consider when you hammer on your general you have small patches of tire contact and those tires will usually spin before it puts a great torsional strain on a belt. On a typical race sled you have a 120 in x 15 inch track loaded with studs hooking up. Id say if anything a 180 hp snowmobile would be much harder on a belt then a 100hp general other then the fact its running in colder air. In both the real key to keeping a belt from being damaged is running a clutch set up that minimizes slipping and running the best belt you can get. Ive raced snowcross all season on the same belt with proper clutching. If your really concerned about blowing belts minimally you no doubt have already have a proper clutch kit and a better belt and listened to the people who did the r&r making them. Or better yet complete clutches that are a better design and do move more air. Maybe contact duraclutch or gilomen and tell them that filter they recommend is wrong and tell them why you are more qualified to make that determination then they are. Maybe they will ditch them and go with just frog skin. Im out of this one.
 

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You seem to ask a lot of questions then get really pissy when people give their input...

yes you might be fine with the filters, especially with dura clutches that I'm guessing are designed to work with those filters. I would NOT put those filters on for a stock clutch setup. I highly doubt that stock is designed to work with them. Especially since a large company like MTN tec has come out with a product like the blow hole, this product is also a reason why I wouldn't recommend blocking off those intakes anymore than needed... you want as much air going into those clutches as possible...

As far as the dust, if sand gets in your clutches they're junk. The bit of fine powder (like baby powder) that will get past the frog skin is nothing to worry about IMO. If you want to test this theory, grab a chunk of aluminum and go rub some baby powder on it. See how long it takes to make it shiney... I bet you're there for a long time! That little bit of powder will do nothing before the clutch wears itself out from its normal movement. I'd be more concerned with belt dust from heat and normal movement destroying the clutch than the powder also...



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Even with all the filters I have in use. It's still very important to blow the clutches out. You will still blow dust out of the clutches.
But...it's nothing like the dust you will find if you don't blow them out often.
My example...back in 2009 with my RZR 800 a friend told me I should be blowing the dust out of the clutches frequently. So I did it in my Toybarn, just compressed air.
It took me about 20 minutes to get all the dust out, and the dust covered every thing near the RZR. Now it takes a minute or two and the amount of dust is small and doesn't make a mess!

So with all the information in this thread. You have to decide what is best for your General. A wise man leans to the over protective. Clutches aren't inexpensive!

Pirate
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
You seem to ask a lot of questions then get really pissy when people give their input...

yes you might be fine with the filters, especially with dura clutches that I'm guessing are designed to work with those filters. I would NOT put those filters on for a stock clutch setup. I highly doubt that stock is designed to work with them. Especially since a large company like MTN tec has come out with a product like the blow hole, this product is also a reason why I wouldn't recommend blocking off those intakes anymore than needed... you want as much air going into those clutches as possible...

As far as the dust, if sand gets in your clutches they're junk. The bit of fine powder (like baby powder) that will get past the frog skin is nothing to worry about IMO. If you want to test this theory, grab a chunk of aluminum and go rub some baby powder on it. See how long it takes to make it shiney... I bet you're there for a long time! That little bit of powder will do nothing before the clutch wears itself out from its normal movement. I'd be more concerned with belt dust from heat and normal movement destroying the clutch than the powder also...



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baby powder isnt tiny little shards of glass. If you dont think it wears things out talk to the mechanics that serviced our trucks in the desert. Yes i asked questions. But wanted answers from people that actually know not speculation and guessing. I can do that all on my own. Really what i was looking for is input on my engine air intake filter. I wondered if anyone had ACTUALLY tried it. clutch filter is covered by the fact duraclutch sells the on under the hood and the one on my side inlet is probably no more restrictive then frog skin, my guess is lts less restrictive. I had my wife hold up the toliet paper and i blew through (just a puff ) the frog skin. Then the 1/4 inch fliter and the paper moved more blowing through the filter. But then im running both and thats not a scientific test. . Benefit there is theres a small amount of oil to attract the dust and it seals up the spots where they leak without having to fool with silicone. My guess is the under hood filters with the modded towers probably flows more air then it did stock. I added an inch hole to the top of them and opened the square opening up about 3/4s of an inch. Thats a good 50 percent more intake area. I apologize to those who took it personal.
 

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Most of my replies aren't speculation. It's simply 15-20 yrs of experience with these/other very similar machines. I also come from a very skilled background of mechanical knowledge. Take my advice or leave it I don't care. But what I'm saying isn't a guess. If it were a guess, I wouldn't give advice...

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
well this isnt my first rodeo either. Ive been moding clutches since i got my first new snowmobile in 1969. Raced from then till i gave it up in 1998. Go back and read my first post. That was the question i asked. I just wanted to know if anyone used a duraclutch or K&N under the hood on the engine air intake. Someone that actually did it and the results they got from doing it. I wasnt a bit concerned about using one on the clutch side because duraclutch did testing and it worked fine for that and they tested using a temp guage not just a pass fail test.

I too can speculate. But wanted real world testing and figured at least one person on here thought of this before i did because speculation is just that. Many times what someone thinks will work wont and what someone thinks wont work will. That said i will walk away from any advice thats says that fine dust isnt abrasive. It gets into everything and tears stuff up. Our motor pool mechanics worked 18 hour shifts keeping our equipment going and so did the helicopter mechanics. Problems and breakages ALL do to fine dust getting into everything. So in fact if you havent actually tested one for an engine air fliter using a fuel/air or egt guages or havent tested a filter on the clutch air intake by recording actual temps over a period of time under different conditions your doing just what i am. Guessing. only honest answer i got on using a filter on my engine intake that wasnt based on speculation or egos was right from duraclutch. they didnt say the FIGURED it would work or not. They said they hadnt done enough testing to say either way.
 
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